It's interesting how few people here discuss the idea that their sinus problems might be fungal.

I've been plagued with sinus problems on and off for years. Only one time did an antibacterial (in that case a special cream my MD had ordered from a compounding pharmacy) help.

In the other cases, I used Diflucan. It worked like a charm, within two days.

It took a while for the symptoms to go away permanently, though. In one case, I was on it for something like five months. My liver was fine during this time.

The most recent time, I had BPPV (a vertigo problem caused by dislodged crystals in the inner ear.....you _really_ don't want this one). It appeared it was being exacerbated by a latent sinus infection. After a day or so of the Diflucan, the problem decreased dramatically; after a couple of weeks, it pretty much went away entirely.

This is discussed to some extent in Teitelbaum's book "From Fatigued to Fantastic."

Why most doctors won't consider this treatment is beyond me. They will, in a few years. It's annoying for people to have to wait to get better just because doctors don't think for themselves, though.

Oddly, one of my doctors persuaded me to get a very expensive nasal CT-scan recently (although my insurance paid for it), because he said that he believed if there was a sinus infection there should be polyps. There weren't. But to say I didn't have sinus infections is insane. No one else ever told me that. The doctor that ordered the test is good in general, too. I'm perplexed.

Comments?

I have had chronic sinusitis for 18 years! It has ruined the quality of my life. I have been checked for fungal but the lab showed a negative culture. I thought I would try the diflucan anyway. Could you tell me what your dose was? I did try one that was 150 mg. but did not notice any change. Also, did you take it in capsule or tablet?

Regular antibiotics have not helped me. The only thing that has helped some are daily nasal irrigations of the nose. Are you completely cured of your sinusitis? Often I have read that polyps are offen associated with allergies. There are many people who have sinus infections without polyps. That dosn't make sense to me what he said. Was he a specialized ENT or a regular MD?

Dreamharp

I was recently diagnoses with fungal sinusitis and my doctors are reccommending surgery. I was glad to hear your thoughts on the subject since there isn't much info out there. I also have vertigo like yours -- it is the worst! I will check out the book you recommended. Thank you!

Are there any differences in symptoms between fungal and bacterial infections? Dreamharp

The ENT wanted to do surgery, nope. the allergist said shots which Im doing but chronic pain for years over the eyes mostly. Antibiotics did nothing, they said just inflamation. For the first time in years no headaches and the only thing that has changed is Im treating myself for yeast overgrowth.

No Dr ever mentioned fungal infection all these years.Now I read new research that says many sinus problems are probably related to fungal issues. Through this whole process of fibro/chronic fatigue I have felt short changed especially when the DRs are writing a script even before i am done explaining my situation. I suspect we would get better doctoring if there wasn't an incentive to write expensive scripts. So I guess I will keep researching and trying things that make sense and are safe and cost effective. Grateful today for some relief in other areas also with my treatment. Peace

Kathyrn had a doc appointment yesterday so we discussed the yeast in depth. I kept your post on the FM Board to me regarding the ointment, etc. I thought this post might help others, so here it goes....

Have you read the Yeast Connection Handbook? I used that plan a few years ago when I was having severe vaginal yeast issues and at the time, Kat didn't have FM/CFS (I had no idea what they even were!). So I dug it out again, and started reading it again.

There is a Yeast quiz in Tielelbaum's book (pg 276) you mentioned above and I dug it out too. He states it takes a score of 160+ to be "highly probable that yeast is the problem", Kathryn scored a wopping 368! Page 60 in the book discribes Kathryn's symptoms to a "T".

She scored 50 points on each of the two biggies -- acne meds (she has been on Minocin per the roadback protocol since May 2005) and 50 for being on an ABx for over a month (Bactrim for 2+ years) and more points for nasal steroids! YIKES! Along with possessing most of the other sysmptoms, her score increased rapidly.

The doctor did the Candida Blood Panal (not the exact name, but you know what I mean for systemic yeast) and the nasal blow to see what grows. He also drew for another CBC, Sed rate, liver, etc.

You know, she went off of the Bactrim and AV on Dec. 9th, and by the 17th she had a sinus infection feeling coming on and white sores on her throat again. He biopsied a sore as well, but he thinks they are viral, as does everyne else. She started on Valtrex this time for a few days to keep them away.

He also did a sinus x-ray and her frontal sinuses have a lot of cloudy areas, indicating infection, so she's back on the Bactrim at a higher dose.

I really think in reading your posts and 'digging' more into this, that it is yeast. It is amazing what symptoms a systemic yeast infection can cause that mimic FM/CFS --

low energy, fatigue, anxiety, fear, depression, brain fog, memory and concentration problems, canker sores, headaches, dizziness, joint pain, adrenal problems, chemical sensitivity, cold hands and feet, white coating on the tongue, bad breath, irregular heart palpations, odor to your hair that doesn't go away with washing -- ALL of which she has. There are more, but those are the overlapping ones for FM/CFS excluding the stomach stuff.

Her doc prescribed the protocol per page 159 of the Yeast Connection Handbook.

Week 1 -- eliminate sugar from your diet to help with herxing.

Week 2 -- 200mg Diflucan once a day for three days. Then 100mg daily. If well tolerated, after two weeks add 1,000,000 units of nystatin (hers is liquid) 4 times a day.

After 3 weeks if improvement, reduce Diflucan to 100mg every other day for a week and then dicontinue. Continue on Nystatin for up to several months. She is going to try 3 months.

I don't know what you did Lisa. This is much higher doses than I did for vaginal yeast. I did not include the Nystatin. The book also mentions switiching to Sporanox or Nizoral if Diflucan doesn't work.

She is also doing the sinus irrigation daily with salt, warm water and baking soda.

He wants me to wait and see what the blood work shows and culture grows (2-4 weeks) before starting all this. But we are doing the sugar elimination right away and in reading Titelbaum again (page 60) I think we will start Diflucan too!

HA HA -- Week of Christmas no sugar for a 13-year-old! We are trying!

Take Care! Connie




[This Message was Edited on 12/20/2006]
[This Message was Edited on 12/20/2006]

So sorry everyone---I totally forgot about checking these subsidiary boards. It's nice to have the information about these topics stored in one place, but I seem to get out of the habit with regard to looking at even those that have been big issues for me.

Dreamharp:

I've not heard of a lab test that is very accurate with regard to measuring fungal sinus infections. The doctors I've known who "believe" in it don't bother with a test.

The doctor who ordered the sinus polyps test CT scan was a regular internist. He's pretty smart and has an interest in CFS, and so I begged him to give me an emergency supply of the Diflucan to try to get rid of the BPPV. (My regular CFS doctor is in another state, and travelling with BPPV didn't seem like the greatest of ideas.) In exchange I agreed to get that polyps test. I have no idea how accurate it is, but the fact that it came up negative when sinus infections have been a huge problem for me makes me very doubtful about it. It cost my insurance company something like $1100 and me aboout $75. I personally wouldn't choose to do it again (and wouldn't have done it the first time), but paying my deductible in order to get the script I needed in a timely way was well worth it.

Several years ago, I had a sinus infection that took five months to eliminate using Diflucan. Every time I would stop the medication, it would come back. I was not being obsessive with regard to eliminating yeast from my digestive tract at the time, which upon reflection was undoubtedly responsible for why the sinus infection was so stubborn. Live and learn.

This past time, I used Diflucan for a month. However, I went on a major crusade to rid my intestines of yeast as well (using a combination of diet, probiotics and herbs). The thing about yeast is, once it grows out of control in the intestines, it migrates everywhere, even into the inner ear. If you can get it under control in the digestive tract, it won't be as likely to spread upward or (for women) into the vagina.

The dose I've used with Diflucan is 100 mg per day.

I'm a little more cautious with Diflucan now than I used to be, as I will elaborate upon in the section below addressed to Connie.

When i first got sick, I had a couple of bacterial infections that went away with a compounded anti-bacterial cream. The others have not responded to that. I didn't notice any symptom differences.

I think it's wise as a CFS patient to never think of myself as "completely cured" of anything, and that is especially true when it comes to anything to do with yeast. I haven't had any real sinus problems for about 5 months, but have had some scattered mild sinus headaches since being on the anti-viral Famvir (I started about a month ago). If I let my guard down, I imagine the sinus infection would be back in full force in less than a year, maybe even a month or two. So it's not even in remission. It's that my attentive gardening is keeping the yeast pruned back. (I guess this actually is the right analogy, since yeast sends off tentacles like plants, no?)

Laurentvg:

Check the main board for my post called "BPPV". Hopefully you will be able to access it.....the search engine is not always working properly.

Here is an article on that topic.

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/disorders/bppv/bppv.html

The BPPV was the scariest health symptom I've ever had. I don't know what I would have done if it had continued.

Again, getting rid of the yeast in general seems to have been key.

Actually, I just popped the post back to the top. the original thread is called something to do with "vestibular" problems, written by someone I think called foyboyfoy? Something like that....

Grace54:

I would think that sinus problems have to be caused by _something_. Whenever there's yeast that can't be killed (this is true of vaginal yeast too), they say "idiopathic." Same thing with vaginal infections. It could be a kind of yeast that isn't easily seen on a slide or killed with drugs, though. (This was the case with a recent vaginal/vulva infection, which just had tenderness as a symptom. It's only been since I've resorted to using boric acid that it's turned into a typical itchy yeast infection....apparently the yeast were kind of hiding and doing only moderately blatant damage prior to being forced out of hiding with the Ph change. I'm pretty sure I'm almost rid of it, but some people with less knowledgeable doctors have these things for years and years with no relief, and think that it's caused by sensitivity to shampoo or something. It's too easy to say that 'idiopathic' should translate into "idiot" since some diseases truly are difficult to figure out. Sinus infections do not seem to be amongst them, though.)

The easy way to get rid of sinus yeast is through the anti-fungal systemic drugs, provided that it's the kind of yeast that's susceptible to such drugs. I used to favor that route, but now am not so sure, as I will comment below to Connie.

Connie:

I don't think of yeast as just "mimicking" CFS/FM. It seems pretty clear that it's part of the CFS syndrome---that people with CFS/FM get yeast problems much more easily than others. (At least in my case, this seems to be due to immune system problems. I tend to think that all CFS/FM patients have immune system problems---as either a cause or an effect of their illness---but since there's a little debate on this I will not make a definitive statement about it.)

While "normal" people can get yeast problems if stressed enough (especially if they've consumed too much sugar and a lot of antibiotics), they usually can be gotten rid of once and for all with one big cleaning. Then as long as they don't really overdo the antibiotics or the sugar again, the immune system takes care of the rest.

Everybody has some yeast, all of the time. If (as is the case with CFS and AIDS patients) you don't have a good immune system though, it almost inevitably multiplies out of control if you don't make a really big effort not to let it.

As I've noticed recently (!), it's very difficult to keep viruses and bacteria in the body from invading in droves when the immune system is weak. At least for me, using the AV has been a real battle (although one that I think I may have started to turn the corner on). Bacteria (and parasites and mycopasma) need strong antibiotics too.

Yeast is a different matter. Getting rid of it doesn't require drugs, it just requires discipline.

I read a whole bunch on yeast during the two years after I got sick. That was one of the three things (along with food allergen avoidance and bioidentical hormones) that moved me from being totally dead to moderately functioning during that time.

But I've found that yeast is a lifelong battle, and that I can't let up on it even a little bit for even a few moments.

For example, after seven years of no sugar and no yeast problems, I foolishly decided that perhaps I could tolerate a small dessert on occasion (every week or two). HUGE mistake. Within a year, I ended up with yeast growing into my inner ears (resulting in the room spinning about and vomiting every 10 minutes), a vaginal infection that's going on six months, and a gut full of yeast that was a bear to get rid of.

So yeast is a big deal for almost all (or maybe all) CFS sufferers. Probably the main question regarding treating yeast is how much to use Diflucan (or other similar systemic yeast killers) to accomplish the goal.

The pros for Diflucan (especially the first time around) are that it's fast and works without much (if any) herxing. It kills everything off within a few days and symptoms all go away. It seems like magic.

The cons are as follows:

1) If you kill all the yeast off with Diflucan, eventually you're going to end up with all Diflucan-resistant yeast. (These don't seem easily killed by Sporanox etc. either.)

This is a very bad thing, because if the yeast grows into the sinuses, there will be _no_ way to get rid of it if it is Diflucan-resistant. Please read my post on BPPV, which is part of the thread called "any one with vestibular disorder?? second post" by foyboyfoy. I am bumping it to the top of the CFS/FM board.

Fortunately, at least some of the yeast that grew into my sinuses/inner ears was not Diflucan-resistant. This was the scariest experience of my whole life, and if the Diflucan hadn't worked, it would have been a major problem.

I also have had a vaginal infection with a Diflucan-resistant yeast going on six months now. I think it's about gone. Some people have this sort of infection for decades, though. If I hadn't had the indianapolis doctor to mix up a potion for me, I'd undoubtedly be one of them since nothing else I've tried (I'm going to write a post about this when I'm sure I'm cured) works.

If you take the chance of using a large amount of Diflucan the first time around, I think you'd better make _damned_ sure that the yeast never take over again. What's left will likely be Diflucan-resistant and thus have the potential of causing really serious problems with no easy solutions. Maintaining that level of diligence is really hard. (And if you're on antibiotics, it might be that no amount of diligence will keep the yeast away.) It's my own feeling for myself that a stitch in time saves nine.....that suffering a bit at the beginning is better than suffering a whole lot down the road.

2) Diflucan is very hard on the liver, even more so than most drugs.

CFS patients seem to benefit from having a liver that is in good shape. There have been a number of posts on the regular board about this.

Especially if you're on a number of drugs, the liver can stop working very well very fast. Even if enzyme tests on CBC panels come up okay doesn't mean that the liver is working at full functioning, which can cause fatigue in and of itself as well as increase drug side effects. And if you destroy your liver, it limits the number of drugs you can take in the future.

3) Diflucan is not always tolerated.

I liked Diflucan a lot, while I was taking it. A lot of people on the board have had bad side effects from it, though. This is the case with other systemic yeast-killing drugs (such as Sporanox) as well.

**

Especially after my experiences with BPPV and resistant vaginal yeast, I am very inclined to avoid Diflucan as much as I can so that if there's ever a time when I really need it, it will be more likely to work. The liver toxicity is a secondary concern, but still an issue (especially now considering that I want to be able to pursue the anti-virals and maybe other drugs in the foreseeable future).

If you don't use Diflucan and there is a lot of yeast, the recovery time will be difficult and fairly slow, though. (The other upside is that the improvement will be _real_, though. The yeast will go away more permanently.....as opposed to reappearing two days after the Diflucan is discontinued.)

The standard get-rid-of-yeast protocol is:

1) Diet

NO SUGAR EVER! It's far easier to just stop eating sugar than to eat a little bit, especially if you have yeast that are screaming for it. A little sugar goes a long way to feeding a lot of yeast. And the more yeast there are, the more sugar they will want.

As my experience shows, for CFS patients, the "no sugar ever" diet has to be continued forever. This is hard for the first 2-4 weeks. After a couple of months, the brain forgets what sugar tastes like and desserts etc. become far less tempting. If you give in even once, though, the cravings often come back immediately and at full force.

Drinking little or no fruit juice and cutting back substantially on white flour also is helpful, especially during the time that you're trying to get rid of yeast rather than just to keep yeast away. I would think that someone on an antibiotic would want to stringently avoid these foods (as well as white rice) to partially make up for the pro-yeast effect.

Some of the literature (including what some people refer to as "THE DIET") insists on basically no carbs and certainly no fruit. This is not a nutritious nor a realistic eating plan to do permanently. And if you have CFS, you've got to be doing this permanently.

Even for three months of getting rid of yeast, it's not very healthy. Nutrition in CFS is very important, and a diet with no carbs stresses the liver too much too. Normal people can get away with this for a few weeks, to speed up the process. CFS patients need to go slower, most people think.

However, when it comes to sugar, you've got to cut it out completely. 100%. I've cheated enough times to know that it's the only way to deal with the situation. It's unfortunate since CFS eliminates enough positive things in life that it's hard to give up sugar too. But if the goal is to improve one's health in general (so that one can have a better life in general), it's basically necessary.

I mean, I try _so_ hard to get better and have so little control over much of my responses. These AV's are a beast. And so to not have the will power to do something so simple as not to eat sugar now just seems to me ludicrous. (Sugar is a drug, though. Maybe more addictive than tobacco, which is saying a lot. So the will to get better does need to be strong in order to cut it out of the diet.)

And yes, there are lots and lots of people on the board who eat sugar. I think that may very well be one of the reasons that they are on this board. (Most of the people on the board are about at the level I was before I got sick. I'm in considerably better shape but am spending a lot of time on the board because I've devoted myself for the next year to trying to get _truly_ well and need all the info I can get.) I don't want to be a prude about it, because I've fallen off the wagon lots of times myself. But in looking back, I can't fathom how I could have been that weak or stupid as to give in. Lots of heroin addicts do themselves less damage than I did with the sugar.....seriously.

2) Probiotics

I used to think that probiotics were too wimpy a tool to be useful in this battle. It never seemed to me they made any difference.

However, about six months ago my doctor told me that the key was to take a large amount of probiotics---around 10 billion organisms per day. (This is equal to about 10 regular capsules.)

This makes sense to me. If you hyperload the system with probiotics, then they eat at least some of the above-average amount of yeast that exists even in CFS patients who are most diligent about avoiding sugar. Hopefully by now my gut has huge amounts of probiotics, although I haven't tested to make sure. It feels like they're helping, anyway.

I asked my doctor what kind to use, and he said a variety is best. I try to use a bunch of different strains, some of them inexpensive and some more expensive. Most probiotics need to be refrigerated; I'd only buy one that claimed not to need refrigeration if I really knew and trusted the company.

Some people on the board swear by a particular brand of probiotic called Three Lac. I don't know that it's the magic powder they seem to think it is, but I bought some and rotate it with the other probiotics I use.

Probiotics apparently can be killed with stomach acid. Since my stomach does not create much acid (or did not the last time I checked), I take the probiotic at a different time than I do my stomach acid supplement. Some people believe that the probiotics in "pearls" that dissolve in the intestines are preferable. I don't have enough info on that to share.

If you're taking antibiotics, they should be taken at least several hours (and preferably as many hours as possible) away from the probiotics. Otherwise the probiotics will just be killed off before they have the chance to multiply at all.

3) Herbs and Drugs

There are a lot of herbs that kill yeast, although different yeast respond better to different herbs. Similarly, some yeast respond to Nystatin and some do not.

Supplements used to kill yeast include oregano oil, pau d'arco, goldenseal, citrus seed extract, caprylic acid, and garlic. (Probably I'm missing some....can't remember. This is not difficult info to find out though. Health food stores should be able to inform, if nothing else.)

Since it's hard to know which herbs will be most effective against the kind of yeast present, it may be best to rotate them (certainly every couple of weeks, maybe every several days). Great Smokies (now Genova Diagnostics) used to do a test which suggested which herbs would work best against a particular infestation, but I'm not sure how accurate it was.

I think that of these, oregano oil may be the strongest. It certainly was potent for me. My doc's really into that one, or at least he was a year or two ago.

Nystatin is supposed to be pretty non-toxic since supposedly it is not absorbed into the bloodstream. Some people can't tolerate it, or have really high die-off at first. I don't see it used as much as the herbs on this board. I've used it as an adjunct to the herbs during certain points when really trying to dispose of yeast, especially when there's a lot of yeast and I want to make relatively fast progress even if I herx. (I use herbs on a consistent basis for preventative purposes.)

If yeast don't respond to Nystatin, they may respond to ampotericin-b (a compounded medication). Despite my doctor's statement that this does not leave the digestive tract, I think that it may have induced stiff muscles for me. I've read other places that this is pretty potent. I have yet to ask my doc about this again (it's been years since we've talked about it).

Another possibility is an anti-yeast enzyme combination, which supposedly dissolves the yeast's cell walls. The most common is called Candidase. Forebearance likes this product. I've not tried it, but perhaps will (hopefully just for maintenance purposes) if I can get the AV and other things I want to try under control.

I've not ever had good luck with homeopathic yeast products, even though I have had some very strong response to other homeopathic products. Some people claim to have great success on them, however. I've never asked my doctor what he thought, and he's never mentioned them.

4) Minimizing or eliminating antibiotics

One of the reasons that I haven't tested for or tried to get rid of bacteria too much is because I'm more afraid of yeast than bacteria (based on my experiences with fighting both). My hope is that if I clean out a lot of viruses, my immune system will be better able to either get rid of the bacteria on its own or tolerate small amounts of antibiotics without getting a yeast explosion.

I have been wondering recently if antibiotics are more successful in treating fibro than CFS. I haven't been able to get enough data to know if this is true, though.

I do think that taking systemic antibiotics for sinus infections may be overkill, though. My doctor agrees with this. He thus cooked up a recipe of an antibiotic in a vaseline-type substance, which is applied to the inside of the nose with a Q-tip twice a day. This cleared up my own bacterial sinus infections almost immediately. (The compounding pharmacy he's used for this is Hopewell in NJ.---the phone number is 800-792-6670. They might be willing to just supply Dr. Guyer's formula to any doctor wanting to it. Or I would guess that if a physician called Dr. Guyer's office, he'd give the recipe out. His number is 317-580-9355.)

The other thing that's pretty good for any sort of sinus infection is colloidal silver, available in nasal sprays from regular health food stores. I discovered on my own that this did a good job. Later I asked my doctor if colloidal silver would be good systemically, and he said that no, but that it was good for sinus infections. It's my belief that if he and I independently reach the same conclusion about something, the likelihood that the effect is real is quite high. This hasn't been enough to totally fix my fungal sinus infections (I've not had a bacterial once since I started on it), but it decreased the severity.

Sinus infections usually cause a lot of sleepiness and brain fog, btw. And it's possible to have a really bad sinus infection without much congestion. My guess is that if someone has a huge amount of yeast in the digestive tract, there's probably some in the sinuses as well. (Bacteria and yeast can coexist anywhere in the body, of course.)

Obviously if the antibiotics are doing something important systemically (like getting rid of those white spots or drastically increasing feelings of well-being), continuing them may be appropriate. But decreasing them when not needed (e.g. through the use of bacterial gels rather than pills for vaginal infections, ointment for sinus infections, or maybe herbs like goldenseal for systemic infections) could be preferable when possible. Everyone should consult with their doctor on this, of course.

4. Die-off

If you have a lot of yeast and a weak immune system, you should expect lots of die-off. This is not as serious as the virus die-off that Jolie and I have experience, but it can be fairly annoying. The main symptoms are usually sleepiness, cloudy thinking, tiredness, more aches and pains. Sort of an exacerbation of the problems that live yeast cause.

These are things that seem useful for die-off management.

* Don't go too fast. Maybe start by eliminating sugar (better to do this one all at once to break the addiction) and adding some probiotics. Then up the probiotics and add an herb. Then add a little Nystatin and go up. If you throw everything you can at the problem all at once, you may get a massive die-off that is more trouble than it's worth. If there's really a yeast problem, setting a timetable of something like three months to get rid of it totally does not seem unreasonable.

* Drink lots of water.

* Keep regular. This may be easier said than done, since yeast leads to constipation in a lot of cases. I personally think a little senna or cascara sagrada when necessary is far preferable to being constipated (especially when getting rid of yeast) even if it's for more than a few days, but this can be debated. Goldenseal also can loosen up the bowels.

* If die-off symptoms get really bad, a colonic (colon hydrotherapy) can work _wonders_. Colonics tend to be pretty wearing (especially during the rest of the day afterwards), but the fast relief of die-off made a couple of them well worth it for me the last time I did a yeast cleanse. The only thing to know is that if you get nausea a bit afterwards, it's because the liver did a bile dump into the empty colon after the cleanse was over. If it happens, don't panic. The symptoms will subside in a couple of hours at most. Other than the weakness afterwards, colonics are totally hygienic and comfortable when done by a good practitioner. (Oddly, in Kansas you need a doctor's prescription. I've not heard of that being the case in other places.) My doctor recommended this to me for yeast die-off; I never would have thought of it on my own.

* Activated charcoal is good at sucking up yeast toxins. Unfortunately, it sucks up everything else too, especially medication. If you're taking medication, be sure that the activated charcoal is taken well away from it on the same day. If the medication is being taken 2 or more times a day, this may be impractical. Activated charcoal helped me some, but I'd be much more likely to go with the colonic now that I've discovered its efficacy if yeast die-off were really bothering me.

**

Obviously this strategy is a little slower and more difficult than just taking Diflucan pills, but (now that I've had 11 years of experience in killing yeast) it absolutely seems the way I would go. I'm not a person to look back, but if I could do it over again I definitely would have taken less Diflucan in the past in the hope that it would have continued to be more effective in emergencies. CFS is a marathon, not a sprint, regardless of how well you hope or intend to get. If you can make a lot of progress in six months to a year, you're doing really well. It's unfortunate that there's no easy solution, but there seems to me nothing to be done about it.

I'm going to put this message to Connie on the regular board, since others may either contribute their thoughts and/or find it useful themselves. We never can talk about yeast enough, I don't think. Even for those of us who have a lot of experience with it, periodic reminders of just how important this topic is are very useful.

She's been on a probiotic, switching brands, for 2-1/2 years. I don't know if it's been enough though relative to the sugar she eats and taking 2 Abx pretty much non-stop. We increased the probiotic and decreased sugar. We also stopped the TF until after New Years so we can focus on the yeast right now.

The Yeast Connection protocol I listed above doesn't keep you on the Diflucan for a real long time. Three days at 200mg, then a week at 100, then every other day at 100mg, so I am not so sure that is the same as month after month of it. You switch to the Nystatin pretty quickly and stay on it, I imagine since it isn't absorbed in the blood stream. I understand what you're saying about Diflucan, but I don't know what else to do at this point but to try it for a couple weeks. She is geting very frustrated with this whole ordeal and I worry about how long she is going to hold on sometimes. At 13, as at any age, this DD is NOT FUN.

She had to go back on Bactrim and the AV to clear up the throat and the sores. Again, we are dumping a lot into her system, so we continue with the Milk Thistle and LOTS of water. She felt like crap all day today and slept a lot more than she has been. Not sure what that was all about yet.

I really hope to be at the point where we can just pulse all of this stuff to keep it in check.... when that will come, I don't know.

Take care. Thanks again for the yeast info. I decided to come here because it all gets lost on the FM board with it moving so fast!

Did you just cut the sugar out? That would do it.

The first time my husband and I stopped eating sugar together (his father was a diabetic and so he decided it would be a good idea too), we both felt like crap for a couple of weeks. It's really exhausting.

Part of it is the yeast die off. (He was eating a lot of sugar, and so even though he doesn't have CFS, he had some yeast too.)

Part of it could be a hypoglycemic reaction. If you eat a lot of sugar, your body gets used to making a lot of insulin. If you decrease the sugar, your body has to readjust to stop making as much insulin, and in the meantime there can be fatigue (and hunger for other stuff).

I would expect the first couple of weeks with no sugar to be hard. Perhaps this treatment is not fortuitously timed, with Christmas coming up? Obviously Christmas shouldn't be seen as a time to indulge _more_ than usual in sugary stuff. Keeping all the usual Christmas sweets way out of sight and mind seems a very good thing indeed.

But the first time you cut sugar out of the diet totally can be brutal. If holidays mean a lot to your family, you could consider postponing that step a bit.

i would't expect anyone with CFS to get much work done during the first week that they withdraw from sugar, though. Schoolwork will probably fall by the wayside if you try to do it during a "working" week..

It sounds like this is something that you have to do, but it's not going to be fun. As with my AV (I seem to be making progress), considering timing could be important.

I feel very bad that Kat has to be going through this, of course.

I wish diflucan would help me, it's never made any difference - once I took it for 30 days; and I've done a very strict candida diet off and on for years, as it controls my endometriosis symptoms even postmenopause, but which also did not make any difference in my sinuses. My CT-scan was also totally clear, and even 2 ENT surgeons did not recommend surgery.

What I have found that at least helps, besides taking something to dry me up overnight, is taking mucinex/guaifenesin, two 600 mg time-released tabs 2Xday. Doesn't stop the pain totally, but helps especially overnight as that is often the worst (I awaken anytime from 4-8 hours later with major headache frequently, even tho bed is elevated at the head)...

I am planning on sticking with this for at least 3-4 months to see what happens. A friend with FM/CF here had participated in an NIH study about 6 years ago where a brain MRI was done;

as an 'aside' they told her she had a fungal sinus infection as any heavy metals in her body would concentrate there and thus show up. She cured it by taking guai for 3 months at the dosage above... I'm sure she also chelated the heavy metals too.

My only problem is coming off what I need to be able to sleep headache-free at all... every time I try to wean myself fromt he antihistamine mix, I get very very bad headaches within a few hours of laying down :(

all the best, Victoria

PS: Ever since the Mayo Clinic's announcement about fungal involvement with chronic sinusitis, I've been waiting for somebody to come up with something... I sure hope the sinunase gets okayed this year!


[This Message was Edited on 02/10/2007]

and thank you for the information. Just about week and a half ago I diagnosed myself with a AFS (Allergic Fungal Sinusitis).

I did this after some research and much debating because I have never had a problem with yeast some here may not believe that but it is true. The reason being I have never abused antibiotics but when one has brain surgery one must take all necessary precautions to avoid an infection spreading to the brain. So here I am...

I am usually on the FMS board. I had brain surgery (March 5, 2007) -- a nasal endoscopic procedure was used to remove a brain tumor. A pituitary adenoma -- everything with that is fine.

The mucosa of my sinuses was very thick and had to be cauterized. Long story short -- I have had nothing but sinus infections since being allowed to blow my nose about six weeks -- yes you are reading that correctly -- after my surgery.

It is now close to 90 days post surgery and I am still fighting sinuses. I do have a history of allergies.

I called my physician last week and said "Look I have been on three rounds of antibiotics. These have been given to me by my neurosurgeon's replacement, an ENT, and you gave me Bactrim along with an injection of Rocephin as a kicker.

Dr. XXXXX do you think this has turned fungal? I have never had a smell like this -- it is very nasty to put it mildly. It makes me ill to my stomach it's so rank".

I am very lucky my physician not only listens to me she also trusts my judgement when it comes to me knowing my own body. I always like to put my ideas in the form of a question though it makes me seem less pushy...LOL

She started me on Diflucan and Nystatin (3 refills) and I am happy to say this combination started working within a few days. The horrible smell starts to go away within about five days -- yahoo!!

Then what happens? I forget (this is so typical of me) to take several doses of the Nystatin and BOOM!! that horrific smell in my nostrils and the nasty taste in my mouth (that won't go away no matter how many times you brush) are back like gang busters!!!

Naturally I am down to the bottom of the bottle of the Nystatin on Friday and do I have enough sense to get a refill -- oh no not me that would be the easy thing to do. (I get my medicines filled where I work because of a discount)

Now I will have to wait until Monday morning to get a refill of Nystatin and I assume it will take a few days for the smell to go away again...argh (smacking myself now)

I do hope I have learned my lesson...Sorry for writing a novel.

Thanks again for the information it has helped greatly,

Karen


[This Message was Edited on 06/03/2007]

thanks for your post. How did you get diagnosed for BPPV? I have severe dizziness and lightheadedness as well as other symptoms that unusual for sinus infections, I can even feel "drunk" and think I have some kind of strange infection but wondered about this kind of vertigo that you described and whether or not I could have it. Also I tried any antifungal once or twice and it didn't help but my sinus infection did not go away the second time. Only the first time.

Dr. Tullio Simoncini in Italy experimated and found that bicarbonate of soda kills fungus and yeast.

About 2 months ago, when I was really starting to have alot of very good days (from various things) I woke up in the middle of the night feeling like something was stuck in the back of my throat and behind my sinus'. There was no congestion in my nasal passages. I got up and took an arsenal of immune support and went back to bed.

After this continued for about a week, I became very wiped out and was at a doctor appointment for my normal CFS. He said I had a 102 fever and put me on Cipro for 5 days. I asked for a Diflucan chaser which he gave me. At the end of the 5 days I felt just a little better, but it wasnt gone. I took the Diflucan and in a couple of days the sinus infection was gone. I thought the Cipro kicked in late. ??? I knew of fungal sinus infections but didnt think one Diflucan would do the trick. ( I just always get a Diflucan if I get an antibiotic to prevent Candida. Of course I take probiotics and herbs as well.)

Okay, the infection came back within days and cleared on a Z pack. The pattern repeated itself. I went on a second Z pack which helped right away and then just stopped working.
By this time I could smell something in my sinus cavity. (EEEEW!!!) I went on Keflex to no avail. I then was put on Levaquin which I stopped after 3 pills. (I still can hardly walk and have to wrap my ankles due to the Levaquin. I knew the risk but was so sick of the infection)
I then went on Augmentin but it was doing nothing. My last doctor put me on a Flagyl/Diflucan combination. I had been trying to talk the other doctor into treating it as fungal but he acted confused at the idea. I didnt expect the Flagyl but was told that when sinus infections wont resolve it can be fungal and that there is a certain bacteria that love to hang out with the fungus and you have to get both.

Now I am on this Flagyl/Diflucan combination. The smell has subsided but I still feel that congestion in the back of my throat most of the time. My nasal passages burn when I breath sometimes as well. It is very odd.

I have taken every natural substance known to man, nearly drown myself with the Netti, sprayed in the upside down position, and used every technique I could find but none have done anything.

The only time I got total relief was my first dose of Zithro but it came back only a couple of days later. That would tell me there is a bacterial component. I think that there is a fungal component for sure now that I have taken so many antibiotics.

My question (if you have not fallen asleep by now) is how long until you really got relief from Diflucan. I feel taking both the abx and the anti fungal at once is defeating what the Diflucan is doing. I am tempted to just take the Diflucan but I dont want a full raging infection again.
Does it take longer to clear a fungal sinus infection?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Oh, and I do live in the wetlands of Florida and I am sure I am breathing in a ton of mold spores outside. My apartment is new and I do have an Ozone air purifier inside. I cannot move at this point. It is not an option.

Thanks,
Michelle